ECM & Eicher Win Awards

[Ron Thorne]

Manfred Eicher is "Producer of the Year" and ECM "Label of the Year" in the newly-published DownBeat International Critics Poll 2013.

This is the fifth time in recent history that Eicher and his label have taken first placing in the annual poll of the leading US jazz magazine, with previous wins in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012. In 2010, the magazine also presented the producer with its Lifetime Achievement Award.

[David Beckett]

ECM puts out more great music than any label there is. Period.

The only other outfit which comes close, imho, licenses it's music. They still put out bushels of great stiff, but are of a different ilk entirely than ECM for the simple reason that ECM creates the music.

Even those few of us who aren't actively fans of ECM and it's present day releases can probably name a dozen ECM releases they wouldn't care to be without.

ECM also puts out a really admirable variety of music. Contemporary Classical music, Jazz, even some gorgeous music from a more folkloric perspective. For an example, check out QUERCUS:

http://player.ecmrecords.com/quercus

This is mindblowingly good music. But neither "Jazz" nor "Classical".

[Steve Reynolds]

Ugh

And I bought a few

They don't capture the sound of either Tim Berne's fine Snakeoil band or Michael Formanek's wonderful quartet.

Both Ches Smith and Gerald Cleaver sound MUCH better live and on other labels

I want to hear the full sound of the drum kit and ECM these days doesn't get it done

[Ron Thorne]

Ugh

And I bought a few

They don't capture the sound of either Tim Berne's fine Snakeoil band or Michael Formanek's wonderful quartet.

Both Ches Smith and Gerald Cleaver sound MUCH better live and on other labels

I want to hear the full sound of the drum kit and ECM these days doesn't get it done

Steve, I won't debate the sound quality of Tim Berne's Snakeoil band or Michael Formanek's quartet on ECM, because it's not something I've heard, and it's not something that any of us can be totally objective about, especially when comparing recordings to "live" performances.

What band doesn't usually sound better "live"?

What is lacking in ECM's recording of drum kits to your ears? Specifically.

Please feel free to ask Steve Lake some questions about their recording techniques and objectives on the Ask ECM forum. I'm confident that he would respond appropriately.

[7/4]

Ches Smith was really loud when I heard Snakeoil play at Greenwich Music School last year. ECM keeps the drums down in the mix.

[Steve Reynolds]

not only do they keep the drums down in the mix, but they do not sound right. All the snap is gone. Everything is muted.

and if Ches was loud with the band, isn't *that* the sound of the band? Ches does sometimes play very loud as he did with Craig Taborn and Mat Maneri - and if that is how he chooses to play and the other guys in the band don't *make* him play softer, then *that* is how the record ought to sound.

compare Randy Peterson on the hatART recordings with Joe Maneri or the incredible "Going to Church" on AUM Fidelity to the ECM quartet date "In Full Cry"

whatever they did (and maybe I ask) to stifle the incredible power and force of Randy Peterson, they accomplished it.

what is unusual is the older ECM (analog?) recordings of drummers often sound as good as anything I've heard - Paul Motian's sound on the box set on the dates from the 1970's is magnificent as is his sound on the later trio recording (not analog?) with Gary Peacock and Paul Bley, "Not Two, Not One". That recording has the signature Motian sound in full bloom.

of course, no recording can capture how a band sounds live, but there are some that are pretty damn close:

The Dark Tree (hat ART) captures Andrew Cyrille very close to what he will sound like this upcoming Saturday. And he is not a particulary loud drummer, but his sound comes through on this disc very strongly.

many of the ICP live recordings capture Han Bennink in full swing and power with that signature sound of his snare or when he plays with brushes. I have one from 2005 that might have been mastered in a day or so - and it is raw, clear and very much like how the band sounds live.

How about what some would say is a bit over-produced from some people's standpoint - Sonny Sharoock's Ask the Ages has the best Elvin Jones sound on record.

and how about all the Gerry Hemingway recordings on hat or other labels - why does he always sound great? maybe that is why he has rarely or ever been on an ECM date. I imagine he would die if he had to hear himself sounding like he's castrated.

[7/4]

I had problems hearing Oscar Noriega play his clarinet. Seems like the drummer could have been a bit more considerate of others.

[Steve Reynolds]

I had problems hearing Oscar Noriega play his clarinet. Seems like the drummer could have been a bit more considerate of others.

I havn't see Snakeoil and with the clarinet in the band, maybe Ches should have taken his earplugs out to realize what was happening.

Funny that whern Oscar plays with Mat Maneri's Quintet (when he plays both alto and bass clarinet), Randy Peterson is the drummer - and when he plays loud, he is louder than Ches Smith and I could *always* hear Oscar well. Then again Mat's quintet is a much more dynamic unit than Snakoil.

I was listening to Formanek's "Small Places" last night and the tunes are quite good, but even the leader's bass is not recorded clearly. On the second track (Pong) Cleaver really, really plays and yet still the drums are muffled and not crisp and clear.

I heard them play that tune live and Cleaver was, well Gerald Cleaver.

too bad his brilliance (as far as the sound) doesn't come across on either Formanek ECM quartet recording.

for those who doubt this, try Formanek's older band dates on enja and get back to me on what his bass should sound like.

[bluenoter]

How about what some would say is a bit over-produced from some people's standpoint - Sonny Sharrock's Ask the Ages has the best Elvin Jones sound on record.

You mean in the few instances of its not being drowned out? I like Ask the Ages, but that's quite a statement! Within the limitations of my knowledge and my memory, I think I'd nominate Coltrane Live at Birdland as having the best Elvin Jones sound on record.

[Steve Reynolds]

How about what some would say is a bit over-produced from some people's standpoint - Sonny Sharrock's Ask the Ages has the best Elvin Jones sound on record.

You mean in the few instances of its not being drowned out? I like Ask the Ages, but that's quite a statement! Within the limitations of my knowledge and my memory, I think I'd nominate Coltrane Live at Birdland as having the best Elvin Jones sound on record.

listen to the drum solo on the first track - I think I can feel the sweat, his sound is just so right.