Branford Marsalis blindfold test

[Mike Schwartz]

Succinct as Ron put it immediately followed by the UN, the NON

Don't you just love this place?

[bluenoter]

There is only one Jaco--if Bob Mintzer, for example, puts out an album called For the Love of Jaco, then I'd bet (as a marketing guy) that a good percentage of jazz fans will know that Mintzer is talking about Jaco Pastorious, . . .

And there is only one Abby. Not as well-known as Ella, of course, but certainly better known than Marc Carey at this stage of the game because of her historic role and the length of her career.

Who are they?

Pastorius
Abbey
Cary

(I'm sorry, but you've misspelled Abbey and Cary every single time in this thread, and I can't stand it anymore. Surely you'd like to spell artists' names correctly.)

[Mike Schwartz]

I love this joint even more now!

[ValerieB]

Here's the bottom line:

The claim was made that Cary put Abbey's name in the title of his album as a way to sell more units.

I don't believe that.

There is no way to prove that is why he did it.

End of story.

Where Rita went wrong was completely screwing up her charge of argumentum ad ignorantiam. It is a way of saying something is true because it hasn't been proven false. She discovered the fallacious argument, just botched pointing the finger of blame.

who is the poster here, Scott, who said that Marc chose that title with an eye towards sales?!? I don't remember that being said! I know that I said that her name would help sales. that's a different fish, my man. I don't believe anyone here challenged his integrity. "The claim was made that Cary put Abbey's name in the title of his album as a way to sell more units." don't remember that being said by anyone!!!

[Tom Storer]

I think Doug summed things up nicely!

Meanwhile, I've been listening to Cary's solo CD and agree that it is very, very good. Doesn't remind me too much of Abbey Lincoln, though.

[Jazzooo]

Thanks, Rita--I was posting between editing songs in a rush for an indie flick, and I should have taken the time to check the spelling. And I honestly thought that was how they spelled their names.

I tried concise earlier and it didn't work, Mike. I figured it was time to expound.

Why on earth does it upset you so much to discuss--to consider--that an artist might indeed choose between diverse musical options with an eye for which one might be not only thrilling musically but also something that might help expand his audience?

Is that so unholy? I don't get it. He came by the association fair and square, and more than that--he gave his heart and soul for over a decade to this woman's work. Any number of vocalists could do an Abby Lincoln tribute album. But who has a more informed, intimate connection than Marc Cary?

I'm doing a concert on October 9th. The set list is a combination of the songs I feel like playing, the songs I feel most comfortable playing solo (most of it will be solo piano) and the songs I think will keep the audience with me, on my side, pleased to be paying attention. Does that trouble anyone? There will be moments that will challenge them, absolutely. But it is in my nature to let them back inside before too long. I know my audience. And Cary probably thinks he knows his as well.

That I might be wrong is a consideration, of course. But all I can do is honor my instincts. And the same is true when I record a CD, the effort I put into the cover art and packaging, into the song titles. The song order, which I still feel is of almost sacred or magical importance! First and foremost I do what I WANT. Always. Second consideration is "what will the experience be like for the listener?" But just because it is second, doesn't mean it isn't important to me.

Do you see that cover photo of Cary? Do you think that was a casual iPhone snapshot that he liked and said "hey, let's use this for my new album!"? Of course not--that's one expensive-looking shot, one of several that were in consideration by...whomever, Cary, the label, etc.

This shit matters. The decisions get made about every single project that someone spends money on. And even if the decision is a bad one, it is still made with the hopes that it will help people come to the music.

[Mike Schwartz]

expounding is good too!

[peterdubya]

[peterdubya]

A few topics here:

First, I've been lucky enough to meet and hang out with Branford a few times. I find him to be an incredible guy: Nice, friendly, funny, extremely intelligent, and talented. Gotten to see him play a bunch too, never seen him phone it in. His onstage banter with the band is off putting to some, but I always think he's really comfortable with the band, and they're having fun.

He's opinionated, but then again there might be a few posters here who are too..... since we're (the royal we) arguing about Marc Cary's intentions of issuing a tribute to Abbey CD, I think I can make this claim with impunity.

Branford made one of my favorite quotes about jazz, I'm somewhat paraphrasing here, because I can't find it.... "The American People have spoken on jazz.......... they don't like it."

Here's a nice link to a live show Branford did last year, it's burnin'

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/06/160688406/branford-marsalis-quartet-on-jazzset

We all know that this stuff is subjective, Branford doesn't like that British Sax player (can't remember who it was), Reynolds does.... I like reading stuff like this, what musicians that I respect do and don't like interests me..... I liked the test a lot.

As for Cary's CD, I think he recorded it because he truly loves Abbey, loved playing with her and wanted to pay tribute to her. Also, I know that record labels like tribute CD's because they think that they'll sell more..... I also know that it often makes no difference, the CD's don't really sell as hoped. Same with tribute concerts.....

[Mike Schwartz]

Thanks for your take on things Peter.

Will you be at Monterey?
I saw a FB photo with Brad at San Jose...

[Jazzooo]

"I'm wondering if you could have possibly made a more condescending and insulting statement."


I'd suggest re-reading your own comments on this thread before you get too pissy about mine, amigo.


"Ah, yes. The classic nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo doo post. " Ring a bell?


Anyway, you challenged people to come up with professional insights about marketing, so now you've got a few to consider.


"As for Cary's CD, I think he recorded it because he truly loves Abbey, loved playing with her and wanted to pay tribute to her. Also, I know that record labels like tribute CD's because they think that they'll sell more....."


Peter, why do you know this, but Scott doesn't? And why can you say it without Scott telling you that you're wrong? But I also think you might be forgetting that the artists themselves also think they will sell more--why only 'the labels'? Are there really any recording artists today who think it isn't important to sell more CDs than fewer? If so, then they will eventually frustrate their financial backers and find themselves without distribution.

There seems to be a resistance to admitting that artists think about such worldly things. I can't see how that helps any aspect of the system. You know, we all tune our pianos, one string at a time just like the rest of you.

Nothing I've ever heard about marketing strategies is fool-proof. Sometimes great campaigns fail--maybe they're pushing a product no one really wants to begin with, or sometimes there are just forces in the marketplace that the promoters didn't think were important to address, but actually were. But one thing is for certain: everyone tries their best, every opportunity we have. NOTHING you see in a finished product like Cary's lovely CD (from what I've heard of it)--not the title, the cover art, the choice of sidemen, the theme if there is one--is an accident. And that doesn't mean it isn't heartfelt and high quality and spiritually informed and all those warm and fuzzy things we love.

Looking back over this thread, I can see how this controversy started. We were talking about how an artist's personal behavior might turn off listeners from the music. I mentioned an embarrassing night of Ms. Lincoln clearly humiliating a young Cary in front of a crowd, and then someone--Mike?--put forth Marc's new album as evidence that Cary obviously didn't mind too much, which is probably true in the big picture. I suggested that doing a Lincoln tribute was a natural step for a sideman who is looking for a bigger audience. And then Scott started making claims that people like Valerie and I were saying that putting a bigger name in your title guarantees more sales...

But of course we weren't. No one came close to saying that, because there are no guarantees, except that Scott will mischaracterize this latest post of mine. Of that, I'm fairly confident.

[Jazzooo]

"Possibly, but this is the kind of thing I've come to expect from far too many here."

How can you be so world-weary? the board isn't even three months old, is it? Egads.


Anyway, I thought of a simple example.

I am not famous, and I accept that. I do have between 250 and 500 people who eventually buy copies of some of my CDs, the ones I really work my ass off to promote. And I truly love them for it. and maybe that sounds like a lot for a basically unknown artist, but it doesn't feel like a lot to me.

If I do another album of Doug Robinson compositions, I will probably only hear from Doug Robinson fans.

But if I do an album of the compositions of Astor Piazzolla, then I might rope in some Piazzolla fans as well as the fans of mine who appreciate my arrangements of the work of others.

And if it were mentioned that Astor happened to be my mentor for over a decade and that he had always thought my music deserved wider recognition then of course that would lend credibility to my Piazzolla project. it would, for example, give reviewers an interesting handle when approaching the music.

And furthermore, if I recorded that album with Brian Blade, then my project's appeal is immediately broadened to people who may not know anything about me or Piazzolla, but tend to be interested in anything he's on. (I still sell 3-5 copies every month on Amazon.com of SitJazzDown, a fusion album I recorded in 2000 with Pete Erskine, Bob Sheppard and Mike Miller...and I sincerely doubt it is because they are all just searching for *my* output. It's cool with me, because they discover me whether they meant to or not. Back when I was a kid, I discovered lots of new artists simply because Steve Gadd or Don Grolnick or Eddie Gomez of Michael Brecker were on their albums.

So the above doesn't seem particularly controversial. But let's heat it up just a tad.

Let's pretend that trombonist Frank Rehak was better-known than he actually was. He could be an astounding player, a peer of Rosolino and Urbie Greene, a favorite of Gil Evans and Miles, a Downbeat poll winner who threw his career away due to drug addiction. I met him in Synanon, where he came to clean up. I was only 15 but musically precocious and he took an interest in me. We spent his final 15 years working together, with him as my mentor and eventually my good friend and even a father figure. We did hundreds of gigs and hundreds of recordings together, though they were mostly lower-quality home studio recordings, the technology of which wasn't very good in the late '70s and early '80s. When he was dying and couldn't play anymore, I can't even begin to tell you about the beautiful six months of afternoons we spent hanging out. He asked me to keep his horn and to this day, I have his beautiful trombone sitting on top of an urn with his ashes in a redwood and plexiglass display case. I take the horn out and play it once a year.

So like I said, let's pretend that he was as well-known as, say, someone like Piazzolla. And let's say I decided to release "For the Love Of Frank (Rehak!)" which included new compositions inspired by him and also reworked tracks that featured him in his prime.

Remember, he's as well-known as Piazzolla in this scenario. Don't you think I would get more attention for that beautiful, heartfelt project than for Two Days in November, an album I recorded with my cool San Diego trio, with excellent players who are basically unknown outside of 92115?

Would I be a whore for recording it? I certainly have the right to, as his mentee and friend and collaborator. And it ain't like anyone else in the entire world had that relationship with him. I loved him and he loved me, and we went through an awful lot together.

Of course, I think the project would have gotten more attention. It's got a STORY, something that distinguishes it from the other 5000 new releases every year.

Final note: on 1996's Plays Well With Others, which featured other bigger names playing my music, I decided to end the album with The Man With The Horn--a song I wrote about Frank Rehak's life, six months before he died. Back in 1986, we were trying to beat the clock. We were recording every single afternoon, trying to get that final performance down, but he had throat cancer and was drugged on pain pills and sometimes just assembling his horn was all he could do. But one day he told me to get ready, and I ran to my studio and wrote the song. The next day, he NAILED it. A lovely, dancing solo that i could sing to you to this day. That was the last time I know of that he took his horn out of his case.

But the recording was shitty, just midi keys and a drum machine and his horn (four of them, actually). So 10 years later, I isolated his horn and laid down bass and acoustic drums and piano, and then brought in two close mutual friends who laid down alto and tenor sax parts and suddenly I had a 'new' version of Frank's final recorded performance.

Now, some who reviewed my album didn't even know who Frank was, but they all spent time on that track and Frank's legend when they wrote. And at least one reviewer basically paid attention to my album in the first place because of the Frank story and track.

More people learned about Frank. More people learned about me.

[uli]

I suggested that doing a Lincoln tribute was a natural step for a sideman who is looking for a bigger audience.

What seems to be missing on your side of the equasion is that Marc Cary is is much more than Abbey Lincoln's sideman. He has various acclaimed records as a leader. He is also a "sideman" in Oliver Lake's latest Big Band record and David Murray's present group to name just some of his associations.


Would you be happy to be described as Piazolla's sideman?

[Jazzooo]

Well, there's an excellent and thoughtful response to my comments, Scott.

Uli, I'm sure elsewhere in this discussion I refer to him as her musical director. I don't think it would be any shame in being described as a great musician's side man, especially if I had held that position for 12 years. You really don't think that that's the most significant linchpin in his career so far?

If you can find me a couple of reviews a Marc Cary Trio CD that does not mention his time with Ms. Lincoln, I'll concede that it's not right to mention it.

There just seems to be so much sensitivity piled upon sensitivity when talking about what an artist thinks about when he conceives a project. We seem to want to talk about everything other than that, which is a shame because I think is an interesting subject. It is real.

[Jazzooo]

"Yes, uli. Please find a review of an album with Abbey Lincoln's name in the title..."


There isn't anything polite about the above blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Read it again. "A Marc Cary Trio CD" Seems clear to me. Not you? You do know that the Lincoln tribute is a solo piano CD, don't you? Why are you even arguing about this if you know nothing about the project?

[Jazzooo]

Seriously, why don't you stop talking about me and discuss the information and concepts I laid out for you? I know a lot about marketing, and I know a lot about music. I'm also not the only one in this thread who thinks like I do. Why isn't that interesting to you?

[uli]

Well, there's an excellent and thoughtful response to my comments, Scott.

Uli, I'm sure elsewhere in this discussion I refer to him as her musical director. I don't think it would be any shame in being described as a great musician's side man, especially if I had held that position for 12 years. You really don't think that that's the most significant linchpin in his career so far?

If you can find me a couple of reviews a Marc Cary Trio CD that does not mention his time with Ms. Lincoln, I'll concede that it's not right to mention it.

There just seems to be so much sensitivity piled upon sensitivity when talking about what an artist thinks about when he conceives a project. We seem to want to talk about everything other than that, which is a shame because I think is an interesting subject. It is real.

It's seems to be obvious to me that Abbey Lincoln is important to Marc Cary musically and as a mentor.

I don't know exactly what you mean by most significant linchpin in his career. If you mean that in terms of his name recognition, then no I don't think it is the most significant linchpin and therefore found it a bit petty to suggest a solo piano record of his is a natural step for him to gain a broader audience. As they say in the industry, he is alredy everywhere.

[Jazzooo]

Interesting. I just googled Marc Cary album reviews, eliminated all of the ones for his latest, and out of 12 found exactly one that did not reference Abbey Lincoln.

And in each of those 11, they referred to him as a former sideman, accompanist, or "pianist for."

Now why not address the information I presented? We both know the disrespectful way you speak to people whenever you feel like doing it. Let's not get hung up in you refusing to talk intelligently with me because I offended you.

[Jazzooo]

Uli said:

"I don't know exactly what you mean by most significant linchpin in his career. If you mean that in terms of his name recognition, then no I don't think it is the most significant linchpin and therefore found it a bit petty to suggest a... (Snip)"


Okay, then we can disagree about how important it was. You say important and I say probably the most important so far. But what I suggested is not petty at all. It is informed, from my point of view. I would never diminish Cary's talent, his love for the woman, or his motives for doing this album.

I just see no reason to pretend that the thought never occurred to him that it might also be a good idea for reasons other than pure musicality. Why does that offend you or anybody so? You honestly believe he would deny considering that aspect at all if he was participating on this thread? I don't. It isn't anything to be ashamed of.

[Jazzooo]

Calm down, Scott. I'm sitting in a mall, talking into my iPhone without my reading glasses to help me proof. And I'm also responding to Uli's comments. I'm not wishing anything away. I told you what I discovered, and I accept what you discovered. I don't have to read the reviews to believe you. You have to see the 11 reviews I found to believe me? If so, I'll post them when I get home tonight.

But you certainly are avoiding what I've been saying. The reviews are only in response to whether or not it was fair to refer to him as "a former side man."

And by the way, it's interesting that you made no mention of all of the reviews you scanned which did mention his connection with Lincoln. Hard to believe you didn't see any, when I saw so many. But like I said before, you don't really seem to be into accuracy right now.

[Jazzooo]

As I said, you really have no interest in accuracy. It's just been about trying to win for you from the beginning because i disagreed with you with fraction of the disrespect you showed others in this very thread. A little embarrassing, honestly.

Perhaps now you will make a unilateral decision to ban threads where things like marketing strategies are discussed. Then you can ask everyone's opinion about it later, no?

Over and out for now.

Doug

[Jazzooo]

Okay, standing in line buying toilet paper and soap. Uli, I really want to explore the concept of pettiness regarding this. Why do you think it's petty when I say that not only have I thought about things like this, but I believe that every single recording artist and their labels do, every time and all if the time? I don't see it as wrong, either.

Okay Scott, here you go: it is wrong to mention that Marc Cary spent 12 years as sideman, accompanist, and musical director for Abbey Lincoln. I hope you will pursue his record label with the same intense vigor!

And of course I appreciate you admitting your mistake about that other issue. I was just waiting for you to do the same in this thread.

[uli]

Uli said:

"I don't know exactly what you mean by most significant linchpin in his career. If you mean that in terms of his name recognition, then no I don't think it is the most significant linchpin and therefore found it a bit petty to suggest a... (Snip)"


Okay, then we can disagree about how important it was. You say important and I say probably the most important so far. But what I suggested is not petty at all. It is informed, from my point of view. I would never diminish Cary's talent, his love for the woman, or his motives for doing this album.

I just see no reason to pretend that the thought never occurred to him that it might also be a good idea for reasons other than pure musicality. Why does that offend you or anybody so? You honestly believe he would deny considering that aspect at all if he was participating on this thread? I don't. It isn't anything to be ashamed of.

You misunderstand me. What I was trying to say was that Abbey Lincoln seems to be important to Marc Cary but not that significant in terms of his audience.

You should have at least read one of the reviews Scott posted. Here it is short and sweet

Review by Scott Yanow


Pianist Marc Cary, best-known for playing with Art Taylor's Wailers and Roy Hargrove, mostly sticks to originals on his debut CD as a leader. With the assistance of trumpeter Roy Hargrove, Ron Blake on tenor, bassist Dwayne Burno, drummer Dion Parson and guest shots from flutist Yarborough Charles Laws and vocalist Charlene Fitzpatrick, Cary constructs a well-paced program of adventurous but chordal-based jazz and he displays a fairly original voice on piano. This is a strong first step for the talented pianist.

[Jazzooo]

Thanks, I did read one review that Scott posted, just not that one. Interesting! I guess though that I would still disagree with the author, since I found several reviews that mentioned ms Lincoln and none that mentioned Art Taylor. If you've got a second, try it for yourself and see what I mean.

For a while I was thinking that I had this point of view purely because it was how I discovered him. But even before today, I read reviews of his recordings that referred to his time with her. Today's quicks zoom around the Internet kind of confirmed it for me.

[uli]

The reason Yanow's review does not mention Abbey Lincoln is that it came out at the very beginning or even before Cary's gig with her.