Acoustic or Electric?

[Ron Thorne]

Do you have a strong preference for acoustic or electric jazz groups/instruments? Are there electronic instruments you really appreciate or cannot tolerate? Acoustic ones?

Due to several factors, some instruments used in jazz expression are usually heard in their acoustic version only — reeds, double reeds & brass, for instance. Then, have the subtlety of the vibraphone within these categories. I feel that vibes are an acoustic instrument, despite its motor which turns a shaft & blades for tremolo or vibrato effect.

Personally, I'm drawn to acoustic instruments and groups more than electric ones, though I really enjoy the best proponents (for me) of electronics in the soul and fusion genres. l feel that piano, guitar and bass enjoy the best of both worlds more than any other instruments.

This has been a topic for lively discussion in the past, so I thought that revisiting it might prove interesting.

[Mike Schwartz]

To me, the answer is absolutely YES!

Seriously, when we see live acts or listen to recordings, they're all played or sung through mics....the most mellow hollow body guitarists and most upright bassists, are miked or have pick ups and are almost always put through an amp....the recordings we love are always electronically remastered to the hilt.

I'd say the line between the 2 categories in the thread title is actually that no line exists at all.

Certainly there are bands, styles, or musicians that employ stronger electronic signatures, but once again it's really all electric as I see it, with few exceptions.

[Ron Thorne]

To me, the answer is absolutely YES!

Seriously, when we see live acts or listen to recordings, they're all played or sung through mics....the most mellow hollow body guitarists and most upright bassists, are miked or have pick ups and are almost always put through an amp....the recordings we love are always electronically remastered to the hilt.

I'd say the line between the 2 categories in the thread title is actually that no line exists at all.

Certainly there are bands, styles, or musicians that employ stronger electronic signatures, but once again it's really all electric as I see it, with few exceptions.

I'm afraid that you've missed my point with this thread topic, Mike.

As a former radio announcer, musician and singer, I understand the role of microphones and audio enhancement. Pickups and mics are a wholly different animal from electric pianos vs. acoustic ones. Or, acoustic basses vs. electric ones. Or, electronic drums vs. acoustic ones. I could go on.

Chick Corea represents an ideal example of a musician who's lived in both worlds, and succeeded. I much prefer his acoustic band offerings, personally. Often, it's only one or two instruments within a band which causes the shift in style and sonic quality.

Oregon certainly can't be compared with Weather Report, in many ways, not the least of which is electronic vs. acoustic instruments. I'm not making a value judgement, either.

If Eddie Harris was still alive, I'd love to have him expound on this subject here.

[Mike Schwartz]

Quite the contrary Ron, I'm not missing the point of your thread one bit.

I just don't see things the way that you do, as a current radio announcer, former musician & non_ singer .

[pig pen]

Certainly there are bands, styles, or musicians that employ stronger electronic signatures, but once again it's really all electric as I see it, with few exceptions.

That's just silly. Are you meaning to say that you hear no difference between an electronic piano and an acoustic one with a mic stuffed in it? There clearly is a difference, seems to me that you're just arguing semantics and ignoring the reality.

I can enjoy music produced either way but I prefer acoustic, in fact I prefer acoustic unamplified when I am listening live. In recordings I also prefer those that attempt to recreate, as closely as possible, the feel of unamplified acoustic sounds.

[Mike Schwartz]

.

[steve(thelil)]

I don't think the argument that "it's all electric" due to amplification really gets to the heart of the question, since I agree that, (for example) a mic'd acoustic piano sounds different than a Fender Rhodes electric. They, like electric and acoustic guitars, are actually different - although obviously related -instruments.

And some may have a preference for a electric guitars over acoustic, and some acoustic over electric. But why must someone prefer one to the other? I see no reason why Mike can't be absolutely honest and correct in his statement that he has no preference for either acoustic or electric music. I certainly understand the position that they work in different ways and, therefore, that someone is unable to say which he prefers in general.

[pig pen]

OK boys & girls.....I'm not engaging with you on this thread.


Have at it & enjoy!

No PMs please....

I hope I didn't come at things too aggressively in my response, it wasn't my intention. In the end this topic isn't important enough to get upset over (and I wasn't) I just thought there was a misunderstanding.

[moldyfigg]

Electric is what fucked Miles Davis up.

[sozamora]

I generally think of electric instruments as completely different entities from their acoustic counterparts, and not substitutes or replacements. I understand the practical considerations for using an electric over acoustic piano, but in general they are their own instruments and some talented musicians can make them sing in their own voice.

That said, I don't care for the sound of the electric bass in an otherwise acoustic ensemble.

[Ron Thorne]

Apologies, Mike, if my response (post#2) seemed confrontational. I wasn't trying to be flippant or argumentative.

I didn't anticipate this topic to be controversial, merely one to stimulate conversation.

More later.

[Mike Schwartz]

pig pen... we're cool

[Mike Schwartz]

Electric is what fucked Miles Davis up.

Thank you Stanley *Grouch*

[Mike Schwartz]

I don't think the argument that "it's all electric" due to amplification really gets to the heart of the question, since I agree that, (for example) a mic'd acoustic piano sounds different than a Fender Rhodes electric. They, like electric and acoustic guitars, are actually different - although obviously related -instruments.

And some may have a preference for a electric guitars over acoustic, and some acoustic over electric. But why must someone prefer one to the other? I see no reason why Mike can't be absolutely honest and correct in his statement that he has no preference for either acoustic or electric music. I certainly understand the position that they work in different ways and, therefore, that someone is unable to say which he prefers in general.

That's partially what I'm talking about, but apparently ruffling a few feathers by stating that in some way shape or form (with few exceptions) the music is delivered to the listener with the use of electricity, hence it's almost all electric TO ME, and yes I know the difference between an upright bass and a Fender, and a Steinway & Rhodes piano.

[Mike Schwartz]

Then Mike, why didn't you clearly state you do not have a preference for one or the other rather than seemingly saying that there really is no such thing as acoustic instruments anymore?

If you clearly understand the sonic differences between acoustic and eletric instruments, then why not also clarify that and say you don't have a preference.

You didn't ruffle any feathers (I always disliked the egostistical nature of that statement, as though the user is simply too cutting edge for everyone else involved in the conversation), you just made some needlessly confusing statements.

Many times when the reaction to you from the rest of the group is universal, the group isn't the one with the problem.

Needlessly confusing to you maybe ( since it appears that you also may be the spokesperson for the group) and clearly I have no preference, as I take each project on it's own merit and simply decide whether I like it or not.

[peterdubya]

For me, it's all context, or mainly context. I guess who's playing matters too.

I have a band that I love called Chico Trujillo, they're pretty much all electric, except for the horns, and I love them.

I just heard part of the new Chick Corea and Vigil CD, didn't like it too much.

For the most part, I am not a fan of electric bass, unless Steve Swallow is playing, then it's fantastic...

I love a good Fender Rhodes in certain contexts.

I hope I've been non-committal enough here.

[Mike Schwartz]

For me, it's all context, or mainly context. I guess who's playing matters too.

I have a band that I love called Chico Trujillo, they're pretty much all electric, except for the horns, and I love them.

I just heard part of the new Chick Corea and Vigil CD, didn't like it too much.

For the most part, I am not a fan of electric bass, unless Steve Swallow is playing, then it's fantastic...

I love a good Fender Rhodes in certain contexts.

I hope I've been non-committal enough here.

Herbie Hancock & Uri Caine rise above the crowd on EP.

[Mike Schwartz]

No, Mike. I wasn't the one you got angry with and claimed you were going to take your ball and go home. I'm also not the one who called your original statements silly.

If you feel the need to turn this into something personal, have at it. Your statements weren't taken the wrong way by Ron, pig pen, and myself. They were very clumsily presented. That, my friend, is on you. But, instead of taking ownership you're now making an effort to deflect.

This will be my last comment to you concerning this matter.[/quote]

Clumsy is as clumsy is perceived

As for the other stuff, you may have read unedited versions with your special access.

In plain English I ain't deflecting shit!

[Ron Thorne]

Perhaps I should have titled this thread Acoustic or Electronic, instead.

... I have no preference, as I take each project on it's own merit and simply decide whether I like it or not.

As do I, but lean more favorably toward acoustic instruments, overall.

On the other hand, I can't imagine enjoying Joe Zawinul any more than I already do, from his journey from Fender Rhodes to synthesizers and beyond. Or, Jaco playing an acoustic bass.

I'm a drummer/percussionist, but mostly a set drummer. I had never miked my drum set until 2003. For the 1st time in nearly 50 years, I was playing with a group where sound reinforcement for my drums was necessary. I was working with a quartet with a singer up front, and the instruments, guitar, bass and keyboards were all electronic. We were playing wide-ranging material from Cannonball and Miles to Bonnie Raitt, Albert King, The Beatles & Gary Moore. If my 1958 Slingerland drums & A. Zildjian cymbals were gonna get some "help", I wanted the best mics I could afford. I became a bit of a mic junky as a result.

Here's a photo of my kit taken at the guitarist's home studio/rehearsal space, my late pal Rob's place. There's a dedicated bass mic (AKG D112), a Shure SM57 (snare & hi-hat), and a pair of sweet little overhead condenser mics for the toms & cymbals, which worked flawlessly for the purpose. I had a separate vocal mic, an Electro-Voice N/D767.



We own a Rhodes 73 Stage Piano and love it for what it is ... arguably the most distinguished and distinguishable electric piano ever made. I can't image Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk or countless others not creating on an acoustic piano, however. As peterdubya suggested, context is important, sometimes crucially important to this discussion.

I'm rambling, but I'm still hopeful that this thread will serve some positive purpose and not become mired down in semantics, or worse, a pissing contest.

~Peppercorn

[peterdubya]

I think Bill Evans did record some stuff on Rhodes......

Would love to have heard Monk play a B3!

[Ron Thorne]

I think Bill Evans did record some stuff on Rhodes......

Would love to have heard Monk play a B3!

You're correct, Peter. I forgot about The Bill Evans Album. Man, what a title.




And, this one I've never heard of but would like to hear.




Monk on a B3 would have been quite a trip. Imagine what his feet would have done.

[Mike Schwartz]

I think Bill Evans did record some stuff on Rhodes......

Would love to have heard Monk play a B3!

McCoy Tyner took a B-3 gig once in Philly coming up....never again! (told us on a radio interview)

[mjb]

I really do not know which I find more difficulty to understand, an attack of Mike Schwartz for expressing his opinion or the statement that "Electric is what fucked Miles Davis up."

[Mike Schwartz]

I really do not know which I find more difficulty to understand, an attack of Mike Schwartz for expressing his opinion or the statement that "Electric is what fucked Miles Davis up."

It's definitely the latter....more than a few people are still quite upset that Miles took off those Brooks Brothers suits some 45 years ago.

[Mike Schwartz]

In today's horrifying pop world, "electronically manipulated voice" takes on all new meaning...everything from completely distorted into some electronic sounding thing, to singers who can't actually sing in tune being morphed into proper pitch and beyond.

In a more *natural* setting, singers do utilize numerous settings and electronic adjustments and amplification to achieve the personal sound they prefer, which can vary widely.