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formulas in jazz
Posted: August 21st, 2013, 4:07 am
by pig pen
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: August 21st, 2013, 10:07 am
by moldyfigg
The one formula that never dies is the Basie ending.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: August 21st, 2013, 12:29 pm
by A. Kingstone
Like Barry Harris said to me once "you're taking the fun out of it."
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: August 21st, 2013, 1:05 pm
by steve(thelil)
A numerical analysis of music which focuses on how many 5 note formulas, how many 11 note formulas, etc. are used by certain artists is deceptively meaningless. I can think of several reasons why. Here's one (sort of)
The article doesn't clarify whether the same combination of notes in the same order constitutes "a formula" if the they are not held for the same amount of time. For instance, are two uses of the notes ABDBG in that order the "same formula" if in one it is half note, eighth note, quarter note, whole note, eighth note and another it is 5 eighth notes? And even if it is, is it the same formula if in once case the 5 notes begin a measure and in another are split between measures?
In other words, a series of notes that is not aesthetically formulaic can appear formulaic from a numerical analysis. So what that is musically relevant is learned from reading the paper?
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: August 22nd, 2013, 12:53 am
by randalljazz
nothing that any musician doesn't already know. like written language, the "creative" act doesn't (for the most part) invent words, or even phrases, but rather arranges the commonly understood vocabulary in (often, hopefully) fresh and interesting ways, to express "new" ideas or narratives.
^77(f $55GGp)7& &75$3@p?/[ ^78>< (8&*6$j !! *
*if i make up everything, it is not intelligible.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: August 22nd, 2013, 8:45 am
by BeBop
Thanks for posting. Not long I ago, I'd read someone's thesis that, without going through quite so much in terms of quantitative gymastics - set out to prove that the first bebop tenor sax solo was recorded in (something like) 1952 by...Stan Getz. Nothing before that qualified, because it was missing some element of the defintiion of bebop.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 3rd, 2013, 7:32 pm
by Ron Thorne
The last thing I'd want to be formulaic would be anything related to self-expression!
Over and out.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 4th, 2013, 6:03 am
by pig pen
Ron Thorne wrote:The last thing I'd want to be formulaic would be anything related to self-expression!
Over and out.
I agree whole-heartedly, but I think it's important for students of music to think about the issue of "formulas". The article above is a bunch of academic blah blah, but I think if you don't think about your own approach to patterns you can unconsciously have patterns in your playing that can become boring. Obviously experienced pros have handle on this, but for students who are left to their own devices where improv is concerned I think it's a concern. I was recently playing with a group where we practiced a lot of "scribbling" (play as fast and freely as possible without concern for technique) to try to get away from playing patterns and I noticed that in most cases each of us had a pattern to our scribbling. I had to start consciously getting away from playing the same way, which is contrary to the exercise, but I think it was a breakthrough for me. I have my own pet phrases that pop up when I'm playing without thinking and in becoming conscious of them I am actually getting further from over-using them. I know some players who try to defeat the pattern playing by learning thousands of patterns (playing through 12 keys etc) so that there is never just one pattern at their fingertips. I'm just a hack player so maybe my experiences are just those of a mediocre player trying to find his way, but I do find this to be an interesting topic.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 5:05 am
by A. Kingstone
Ron Thorne wrote:The last thing I'd want to be formulaic would be anything related to self-expression!
Over and out.
The 32 bar standard song form AABA or AB and 12 bar blues are formulas.
There is lot's of self expression within these frames.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 8:21 am
by BeBop
A. Kingstone wrote:Ron Thorne wrote:The last thing I'd want to be formulaic would be anything related to self-expression!
Over and out.
The 32 bar standard song form AABA or AB and 12 bar blues are formulas.
There is lot's of self expression within these frames.
Sure, lots of formulas: a major scale, all of harmony, rhythm.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 8:46 am
by steve(thelil)
That vibrations produce sound and therefor music is also a formula. Not all formulas are bad or all that limiting.
I'm drinking Vodka and baby formula right now (known in alcoholic circles as a White Malyshka).
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 9:21 am
by BeBop
steve(thelil) wrote:That vibrations produce sound and therefor music is also a formula. Not all formulas are bad or all that limiting.
I'm drinking Vodka and baby formula right now (known in alcoholic circles as a White Malyshka).
Exactly. I don't want to hear some cat blowing endless scales (even "blues scales"), or something he got out of a textbook. But, on the other hand, there are some great songs (albeit many of them now overplayed) built on, essentially, formulas (e.g., Giant Steps, or anything built on cycles of fourths)
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 2:09 pm
by Ron Thorne
I'm afraid that I didn't express myself very clearly in post #7.
What I
tried to convey was a sense of the antithesis of jazz expression, spontaneity and improvisation ... predictability, sameness, etc.
Of course I realize that there are some "formulas" in music. I'm a longtime musician and music instructor.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 2:24 pm
by steve(thelil)
Ron Thorne wrote:I'm afraid that I didn't express myself very clearly in post #7.
What I
tried to convey was a sense of the antithesis of jazz expression, spontaneity and improvisation ... predictability, sameness, etc.
Of course I realize that there are some "formulas" in music. I'm a longtime musician and music instructor.
I didn't at all mean to be critical, Ron. I saw a joke opening, I jumped in. I have little control over that
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 2:45 pm
by Ron Thorne
steve(thelil) wrote:I didn't at all mean to be critical, Ron. I saw a joke opening, I jumped in. I have little control over that
No problem. I felt a need to clarify my statement.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 3:46 pm
by A. Kingstone
Ron Thorne wrote:I'm afraid that I didn't express myself very clearly in post #7.
What I
tried to convey was a sense of the antithesis of jazz expression, spontaneity and improvisation ... predictability, sameness, etc.
Of course I realize that there are some "formulas" in music. I'm a longtime musician and music instructor.
Phew. I thought you were gonna say we all play free and ignore what came before us. Next thing you know thelil has his pants off and is playing with open tunings.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 3:51 pm
by steve(thelil)
A. Kingstone wrote:
Phew. I thought you were gonna say we all play free and ignore what came before us. Next thing you know thelil has his pants off and is playing with open tunings.
I'm halfway there now.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 3:53 pm
by steve(thelil)
A. Kingstone wrote:
Phew. I thought you were gonna say we all play free and ignore what came before us. Next thing you know thelil has his pants off and is playing with open tunings.
I'm three quarters of the way there now.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 4:23 pm
by A. Kingstone
steve(thelil) wrote:A. Kingstone wrote:
Phew. I thought you were gonna say we all play free and ignore what came before us. Next thing you know thelil has his pants off and is playing with open tunings.
I'm three quarters of the way there now.
I hope you mean you've de-tuned some strings.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 4:41 pm
by steve(thelil)
A. Kingstone wrote:
I hope you mean you've de-tuned some strings.
Yep. They represent one quarter.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 5th, 2013, 5:00 pm
by A. Kingstone
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 6th, 2013, 5:58 am
by John L
Actually, the paper looks interesting, and may have some real value. The problem is that they really oversell the results for the reasons cited above. You could do the same thing with rhythmic patterns, for example, which are certainly no less important in jazz than sequences of notes.
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 6th, 2013, 8:11 am
by sozamora
I'm just a programmer, so I'll put it in terms I understand.
if (!it.Properties.Contains(ThatSwing))
{
it.Meaning = null;
}
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 6th, 2013, 9:12 am
by bluenoter
sozamora wrote:I'm just a programmer, so I'll put it in terms I understand.
if (!it.Properties.Contains(ThatSwing))
{
it.Meaning = null;
}
else printf("Doo-wah doo-wah, doo-wah doo-wah, doo-wah doo-wah, doo-wah doo-wah");(I'm doing my best. All I learned was PL/1 in about 1970.)
Re: formulas in jazz
Posted: September 6th, 2013, 11:29 am
by Ron Thorne
idonotdetectanyswinginyourdoo-wahbluenoter 
