Branford Marsalis blindfold test

[gonzo]

personally i really enjoyed the ravi cut. i did not see where he is coming from. that whole cd is great.

[Mike Schwartz]

I don't know who is being accused of shocking levels of naivete.

That said, when I met Ms. Lincoln back stage at a performance with my daughter, then a college student majoring in creative writing was a huge fan of Maya Angelou and was smitten by Abbey's story telling and way of expressing lyrics including "Caged Bird" among others she was so sweet and receptive to Mika's visit left quite a wonderful impression.

So far as Cary's solo piano project selling so may more copies because of the Lincoln connection is a laugh indeed!

On the current JazzWeek charts "For The Love Of Abbey" is in a 3 way tie for 42nd place!
I'm sure they're rolling in a Brinks truck to drop off all the money he's making on this recording

http://www.jazzweek.com/charts/

[Mike Schwartz]

personally i really enjoyed the ravi cut. i did not see where he is coming from. that whole cd is great.

I had Ravi on the show for that project which I also think is first rate!

[Mike Schwartz]

It came off catty and I didn't mean it that way. But the fact that he built his career by backing her up makes it a natural theme for a disk that would be a natural fit with his fans and hers as well. Forgive me for being a tad cynical but I would be shocked if the commercial aspects of such a project were never discussed by the producers.

Actually, it was from the president & founder of Motema Music, Jana Herzen where I learned of the Cary/Lincoln connection discussing the 10th anniversary of the label [and how much I like the record] and the Motema artist showcase coming up next Saturday at Monterey Festival.

[Tom Storer]

Among jazz vocalists, Abbey Lincoln is a well-known name and her fans were loyal.

Dedicating the record to Lincoln may have been perfectly sincere in terms of Carey's feelings about his former boss and done with the idea that it would tempt buyers who might otherwise have thought, "Huh, another solo jazz piano CD" and looked no further, but who, as Lincoln fans, decided to go for it. It also no doubt served as talking point in reviews of the CD. So it doesn't sound ridiculous at all to me to see it as having a marketing dimension, nor does it seem like a bad idea, marketing-wise.

That the record doesn't sell tens of thousands or make the cover of Time Magazine has nothing to do with it. Every sale counts!

[Tom Storer]

It surprises me that you think there is no marketing dimension to "hommage to" records. It's a time-honored tradition.

[pig pen]

More faith-based rhetoric.

I've asked twice for evidence and have only received "I can't believe that you don't believe" as a response.

I'm not sure what you would accept as evidence. The argument doesn't mean enough to me to do an exhaustive review of the marketing literature to see if there is support for the thesis that presentation of past side-roles of musicians has a positive marketing effect (If I could get a colon in there that might be the core of a good title for a research paper ). I think that goes without saying and all I can provide as evidence is anecdotal.

When anyone who isn't an "A-list" well known player is promoted, the first thing you will see is a list of people they have played with. Does that not influence you when you are seeing an unfamiliar name and you don't know if you want to give them a chance or not? As a matter of fact, this is advice that is always given to people who are new to jazz "If you like something check out what the sidemen are also playing on". The message imparted by saying who someone played with is two-fold, number one it gives you an idea of the style that they might be playing in and number two it gives some legitimacy to a name that you may not be familiar with. Whether Marc Carey gains anything by implying his association with Abbey Lincoln helps him or not, it definitely would have a marketing impact of some sort (imho).

If you insist that only a peer-reviewed study of the marketing phenomenon is acceptable evidence, you will have to wait a bit longer

[pig pen]

*yawn*

Homage albums are done for marketing purposes.

Jesus died for your sins. Sorry I can't prove that with a peer reviewed study.

At least I gave some examples to back up why I think there could be a marketing purpose (I never said that it was solely for marketing nor did anyone else). Fundamental to the discussion is the idea that who a person has played with before has some marketing value, do you dispute that? If so, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I don't have time for that. If you do agree with that proposition, can you not see an obvious extension to including an allusion to your past side-person's role in an album title as a good way to keep that association top of mind. Again, there are almost definitely other reasons for the title, but the marketing angle is at least one possible reason for having it there.

[bluenoter]

Name one Jazz album that sold better than one would have expected from said artist because it had the name of a Jazz legend in the title.

Mother: Eat the rest of your dinner, Junior! Think of all the starving kids in Africa.
Junior: Name one.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. And as pig pen pointed out, we're not marketing experts. I'm guessing that any such example would then be dismissed on the grounds that the expectations weren't reasonable, that the example was faulty in some other way, or that the example was simply insufficient---whereupon another example would be requested, and so on.

And already the terms have been changed:

Give an example of this phenomenon [?], TStor. Show me the proven success of such a tactic [?].

So far, I think I've identified logical fallacies of these types in Scott's requests: argumentum ad ignorantiam, moving the goalposts, weasel words, and false dichotomy (either Cary truly wished to memorialize Lincoln or his album might sell better because her name is in the title). Disclaimer: I'm trying to teach myself to identify logical fallacies.

Several times in this thread, I've been tempted to comment in support of both sides, each in turn, but the arguments have been too fast and furious for me (throughout the thread; not just Scott's arguments), and this will be my only comment.

[pig pen]

No, we're NOT marketing experts. Finally!

Now then, WHO is arguing from a point of ignorance?

Hint: you perfectly uncovered the logical fallacy.

Not exactly, are you saying that only PhD's in marketing are qualified to recognize what is or is not marketing? Or are you using the modern usage of "expert" (ie: someone who is called an expert at least 3 times).

ps: I grant that I am not an expert in anything, but I am married to someone who has done extensive academic research in marketing among other things and I can state for a certainty that such a study wouldn't be helpful to this discussion.

[bluenoter]

Where Rita went wrong was completely screwing up her charge of argumentum ad ignorantiam. It is a way of saying something is true because it hasn't been proven false.

(okay, last comment) Or vice versa; it is also a way of saying something is false (simply) because it hasn't been proven true. Not all online sources go on to state that. Here's one that does.

[bluenoter]

Yet, conveniently, I was the only one charged with it.

Look, I really don't care why he chose that title.

BUT, I also think it is wrong to impugn the man's integrity by making claims that cannot be substantiated.

(Sigh; so much for having posted my last comment.) At a glance, only you made the request "Name one," etc. Also, you were at bat when I took another look at the thread.


If anything, it's easy to cite evidence that whatever the effect of the album title might be, Cary truly wished to memorialize Lincoln, and maybe I will later. But as I'd already edited in,

the arguments have been too fast and furious for me (throughout the thread; not just Scott's arguments)

[pig pen]

Yet, conveniently, I was the only one charged with it.

Look, I really don't care why he chose that title.

BUT, I also think it is wrong to impugn the man's integrity by making claims that cannot be substantiated.

I didn't think anyone was impugning, at least that was not my take on it. You are correct, we don't know anything for certain, but if we can't speculate what the hell else are we going to do here?

[Tom Storer]

Dedicating the record to Lincoln may have been perfectly sincere in terms of Carey's feelings about his former boss and done with the idea that it would tempt buyers who might otherwise have thought, "Huh, another solo jazz piano CD" and looked no further, but who, as Lincoln fans, decided to go for it. It also no doubt served as talking point in reviews of the CD. So it doesn't sound ridiculous at all to me to see it as having a marketing dimension, nor does it seem like a bad idea, marketing-wise.

Give an example of this phenomenon, TStor. Show me the proven success of such a tactic.

Until then, everything you and Valerie are saying is mere conjecture.

Well, yeah. When I use language like "may have been" and "doesn't sound to me," that kind of signals that we're in the realm of conjecture, wouldn't you agree?

"Huh, another solo Jazz piano CD. But wait, it has Abbey's name in the title. I must have it!!" is the most ridiculous argument so far.

Your phrasing seems exaggerated. How about, "Huh, another solo jazz piano CD... oh, wait a minute. Abbey Lincoln, I loved that concert I saw. And this guy was her pianist? Maybe I'll get this one instead of that Geoffrey Keezer solo album that got five stars in Down Beat."

Can I PROVE that X number of jazz fans were influenced by this kind of thing to buy X number of recordings? Clearly not. Have I ever been influenced by this kind of thing? Certainly. "So and so plays the music of Wayne Shorter." "So and so does the Duke Ellington songbook." "So-and-so makes record with famous musician whose band he played in." "Famous musician produces album by little-known musician with strong recommendation printed on the cover." Most definitely. Am I so unique that I can assume I am the only person to have behaved that way? Hardly.

Hence my own experience leads me to believe that association with well-known musicians, including in the name of the album, can indeed attract purchasers. For some reason you see this as "ridiculous," although I would have expected it to be uncontroversial. But I must confess that I lack peer-reviewed statistical studies.

[bluenoter]

the arguments have been too fast and furious for me (throughout the thread; not just Scott's arguments)

That's for the third time. Don't make me use bigger type, Scott!

[Mike Schwartz]

In this recent round of give & take surrounding the Cary solo recording, the most outstanding entry is Uli's post 72 interview with Cary including clips from the producer of a previous taping with Miss Lincoln in the mix. It's 15 minutes in length. What's brought out is that Cary & Lincoln were neighbors where they knew one another from living on the same block, and she used to hear him rehearse at another neighbor Arthur Taylor [Taylor's Wailers] and told him she'd love to play with him someday; years before he eventually joined her.

Although there may be some truths regarding the homage/name recognition albums as some kind of *marketing ploy* I'd venture to say there's no such motivation in this case.


"For The Love Of Abbey"
Abbey Road?
Dear Abby?
Abby Cadabby from Sesame Street?

If the motivation were to sell more....wouldn't it make sense to include the full name Abbey Lincoln?

Here's a clear example, as opposed to all the guesswork otherwise being flung around here, an album done with her blessing & permission when she [Abbey Lincoln] was still alive.

[Tom Storer]

Well, if I had made a post like this I would have been accused of moving the goal posts.

I don't see how I did that. I can't answer for anyone's posts but my own, and I was making no definitive declarations about anything.

My main contention was about simply having Abbey in the title was some kind of way to cash in on her success. Or sell more albums, which I still find completely laughable.

If you can see some logic in some of my scenarios, as you said, then you can hardly find it completely laughable, since those scenarios lead directly from a name in the title to more albums sold.

But I don't think you're correct to assume that seeing a marketing logic as one consideration in the name of the album is necessarily impugning Marc Cary's integrity. If he told me, "Tom, old friend" (we have never met, actually), "My producer pointed out that putting Abbey's name in the CD title might make it more visible to Abbey's many fans and thereby help the CD's chances of success," I would have said, putting my arm around his shoulder, "Marc, I think that's a perfectly sound and reasonable attitude that does not make you a cynical opportunist in the slightest." And I would have meant it.

Mike, as I said earlier, there's no need to think that EITHER Cary hoped to make his CD more visible OR ELSE he truly loved Abbey Lincoln and wanted to pay homage. Both could be true.

[Mike Schwartz]

Well, if I had made a post like this I would have been accused of moving the goal posts.

I don't see how I did that. I can't answer for anyone's posts but my own, and I was making no definitive declarations about anything.

My main contention was about simply having Abbey in the title was some kind of way to cash in on her success. Or sell more albums, which I still find completely laughable.

If you can see some logic in some of my scenarios, as you said, then you can hardly find it completely laughable, since those scenarios lead directly from a name in the title to more albums sold.

But I don't think you're correct to assume that seeing a marketing logic as one consideration in the name of the album is necessarily impugning Marc Cary's integrity. If he told me, "Tom, old friend" (we have never met, actually), "My producer pointed out that putting Abbey's name in the CD title might make it more visible to Abbey's many fans and thereby help the CD's chances of success," I would have said, putting my arm around his shoulder, "Marc, I think that's a perfectly sound and reasonable attitude that does not make you a cynical opportunist in the slightest." And I would have meant it.

Mike, as I said earlier, there's no need to think that EITHER Cary hoped to make his CD more visible OR ELSE he truly loved Abbey Lincoln and wanted to pay homage. Both could be true.

Post #72 Tom...watch the video
If selling were a strong (not the only) motive bears the question why wasn't her full name used?

On a BBS like this Abbey would get picked from the crowd, but certainly doesn't carry the weight of say Duke, Bird, 'Trane, Herbie, Ella etc.

[relyles]

Regardless of the motivation, the Cary solo CD is a marvelous document. One of my favorite releases this year.

[Tom Storer]

No, TStor. I can see the arguments that such and such played with so and so, or was influenced by, or was discovered by, and so on.

NOT simply such and such put so and so's name in their album title.

So what you're saying is "if a musician randomly cites the name of a better-known musician in his CD title although there is no connection whatsoever between the two, it will have no marketing impact"? I'd say you're right about that. But is that the context?

[Mike Schwartz]

To lighten things up and to demonstrate a CLEAR example of celebrity coat-tail-riding this is a new release which is NOT a joke.

Word is that it's horrendous.

I've been sent a copy, but now I'm afraid

[pig pen]

Why do I have a sudden urge to eat oatmeal?

[Mike Schwartz]

Why do I have a sudden urge to eat oatmeal?

....or eat some, then throw it up.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-18/ ... rd-brimley

[Ron Thorne]

Regardless of the motivation, the Cary solo CD is a marvelous document. One of my favorite releases this year.

Now we're talkin'. Succinct.

[Jazzooo]

This is the the part I hate, where a marketing expert and a professional independent musician who has enjoyed some measure of success has to shatter the illusions of guys like Scott and tell them that yes, anyone who goes through what it takes to make and release an album today is definitely thinking of how to get people to purchase it. If not the artist himself, then certainly the people who are paying for the rehearsals, the studio time, the mixing and mastering, the design, the replication of CDs, the proliferation of digital files, and the promotion. But almost certainly the artist himself nowadays--it's too tough a climb for a label today to go to bat for an artist who isn't somewhat savvy about the biz.

It doesn't make them--us--whores, or hypocrites, or liars, or soulless 'record industry' weasels. It just makes us professionals trying to move a few units in a usually less-than-supportive environment.

I like Carey, and I like his music, and I am not suggesting that he only did what he did to sell albums--that would be purposely misinterpreting my comments. I'm sure he loved her and her music. But we all make choices, and absolutely referring in the title to his highest profile employer to date--who is also happens to be a beloved and historically important figure to some of us--definitely has some marketing zing to it that another album title wouldn't.

To someone who knows nothing about jazz? Who cares? The chances of them buying a Marc Carey album are slim to none. For those of us who know about jazz, there's a good chance that we know about Abby Lincoln, even if we haven't ever bought a CD of hers. Married to Max Roach, an activist, a long career and some excellent compositions under her belt...and now her former musical director is paying tribute to her. That is very sweet and also intriguing, to some of us.

As for 'Why wouldn't he use her last name?" well, honestly that's the kind of question that a client, who has no background in marketing or promotion, might ask Don Draper while Draper tries not to roll his eyes too broadly. There is only one Jaco--if Bob Mintzer, for example, puts out an album called For the Love of Jaco, then I'd bet (as a marketing guy) that a good percentage of jazz fans will know that Mintzer is talking about Jaco Pastorious, having played with him and his bands in several settings. There is only one Wayne; there is only one Carmen, one Ella (think about it--if a singer did an album called For the Love of Ella, wouldn't you imagine it was going to be covers of Ella F's catalog?).

And there is only one Abby. Not as well-known as Ella, of course, but certainly better known than Marc Carey at this stage of the game because of her historic role and the length of her career.

I say I'm a marketing expert, by the way, because I did well enough creating effective and occasionally award-winning promotional programs for Shell, Marriott, Abbott Laboratories and other large clients to retire at the tender age of 46. I was really pretty damned good, as was Glenda who was my partner in everything I ever designed that worked (and everything that failed, which didn't happen very often). At the same time, I created an entirely new market for my independent jazz releases that, for a time, saw the kind of success that most jazz labels don't even dream of. It was an end-run around the system and honestly the same technique couldn't work as well today without some major re-tooling, but there isn't much doubt that it worked like a charm in the '90s.

So yeah, pretend that him thinking about the commercial benefits of releasing a tribute album to his beloved mentor is somehow below him or that it just never occurred to him. To me, that's incredibly naive, but then, so is suggesting that discussing it is an insult to the man. It isn't.

Prove that it was an effective idea? Can't do it, just like lots of other marketing ideas that people throw up against the wall to see what sticks. If you feel that proves your point, Scott, then god bless you. Brilliant campaigns fail for all kinds of reasons, just like mediocre ones strike pay dirt at times. And let's face it--most small labels aren't run by marketing geniuses, but rather by people with fire in their bellies for the music and a few bucks to lose by standing behind something they believe in. Some are super hip and intuitive--I think the guys from Origin Records, for example, are really quite savvy--a small label that has garnered as many Grammy nominations as they have? That takes some skills, even beyond maintaining their roster of deserving artists.

But you know--lots of ideas that seem like they'd be good---simply are! I am a huge believer in gut feelings and in fact I never supported focus groups in my own work. The one or two times the client insisted, even he could see what a watered-down piece of crap we'd be left with if we took their input.

No, this is one of those commonsense things--think of, say, Peter Erskine who has a new biography out called No Beethoven. Now, Erskine has been a pro since he was 17, playing with Stan kenton. What an exciting time that must have been,,,and if Peter ever writes a total autobiography I'm sure there will be great stories from that era. But he chose to make his first biographic book about his time with Weather Report, not his time with Stan Kenton, or Maynard, or Steps, or his session work or his orchestral experiences. Why? I'm sure the time with WR was hugely meaningful to him personally, but the fact that it also helped change the face of modern jazz fusion and meant a lot to US was a consideration too. Instead of telling stories about the fabulous arrangers for Kenton, he's telling stories about Wayne, and Jaco, and Joe...certain to be more compelling to a guy like me who respects Kenton but doesn't listen to him much anymore.

But I still listen to WR, a little bit almost every month now that I think about it.