Branford Marsalis blindfold test

[pig pen]

Is Branford trying to copy Miles? Particularly on John Surman's piece.

[relyles]

Entertaining, but nothing really unexpected. His opinions about what he likes and dislikes have been pretty consistent. The only surprise to me was the remarks about David Murray. I did not know there were tracks from the recording he appeared on with Murray that were cut.

[steve(thelil)]

I've always loved blindfold tests. When I was maybe 16 and not even really into jazz I remember going through a big pile of DownBeat's in the public library and reading every blindfold test.

To my knowledge , DB has never published a collection of their BlindFold tests (and I've tried to find one). I think it would sell.

[pig pen]

I've always loved blindfold tests. When I was maybe 16 and not even really into jazz I remember going through a big pile of DownBeat's in the public library and reading every blindfold test.

To my knowledge , DB has never published a collection of their BlindFold tests (and I've tried to find one). I think it would sell.

I think you're right, a book of blindfold tests would have a market (I would probably consider it if it wasn't too pricey).

[peterdubya]

I love Blindfold tests too! Been at a few that Mr. Ouelette conducted at Monterey.

I like this one a lot, Branford is one of my favorites and not afraid to say he doesn't like something.

I don't know the Fathead CD, but seeing the band, can't imagine I'd think much of it either.

I wouldn't say Branford plays Avant Garde, as much as he reached for the outer edges of what he's playing. I mean he does go 'out' at times, but he always comes back in, and he follows the changes.

The thing about playing 'out' to me is that once you're out, there's nowhere to go but back in (unless you just stay out).....

I love Branford's new group, there's a great dynamic and they can pretty much play whatever they want....

I enjoyed this a lot, thanks for posting!

[Coda]

The thing about playing 'out' to me is that once you're out, there's nowhere to go but back in (unless you just stay out).....

Quote of the day!

[steve(thelil)]

And at that point in time Coltrane and Dolphy were called "anti-Jazz".

Good point. It's funny how ears adjust over time. Now Charlie Parker stuff is often considered the height of cliche. But when it was new, some people did not hear it as jazz. Cab Calloway called it "Chinese Music!

[steve(thelil)]

The "height of cliche"?

Really?

I've never heard it referred to in that way.

I put it really badly. What I meant is when today's players are rooted in Parker it's considered cliched, not that Parker is. For instance, Reynolds foams at the mouth (even more) when Phil Woods' name is mentioned.

[Jazzooo]

"I don't know the Fathead CD, but seeing the band, can't imagine I'd think much of it either. "

Wow, Pete--you don't even have to hear the music, so it's not even a blindfold test--more of a blindfold and ears stuffed with cotton test.

[A. Kingstone]

I love what he says about Dexter.

[A. Kingstone]

The "height of cliche"?

Really?

I've never heard it referred to in that way.

I put it really badly. What I meant is when today's players are rooted in Parker it's considered cliched, not that Parker is. For instance, Reynolds foams at the mouth (even more) when Phil Woods' name is mentioned.

Does Reynolds play?

[A. Kingstone]

Uh-oh...

Flame suit on!

No chance.

[A. Kingstone]

You are obviously inexperienced in dealing with The Preacher...

True. But I've lurked since the days of The Chair and won't be baited.

Unless I'm drunk.

[David Beckett]

Branford's a fine musician. World class, even.

But when he came a few years ago, I asked him "You travel a lot and play festivals all over the world; what have you heard lately that you found interesting?" Hi immediately and seemingly proudly said "Nothing!". I asked him if he'd heard certain people I named. He seemed utterly uninterested.

That sort of willful ignorance, which seems a philosophy, a stance, doesn't speak well of him. My stance, my philosophy, is the opposite - there must be something interesting I haven't heard.
Otherwise life's quite bleak.

The next time he came I went to hear him play (see my philosophy above), but didn't rearrange my schedule to go see him interviewed again.

[Mike Schwartz]

For years now they've done one of these in front of an audience at Monterey Jazz Festival with Oullette as the moderator.

DownBeat
Blindfold Test with
Joe Lovano
4pm-5:30pm Sat 09/21

I haven't taken one in there, but have been told that some of them have been really funny ( and interesting)

I did see Ron Carter do one of these at one of the old IAJE conventions, which was fun and also quite interesting.
They played a Dave Holland Quintet record which I recognized immediately....Mr. Carter didn't know who it was but HATED the bass playing.

[Tom Storer]

Sometimes musicians are very opinionated, and when they happen to be topnotch musicians themselves, their confidence in their own judgment can resemble arrogance. Branford is very knowledgeable and I look forward to reading interviews, blindfold tests, etc. because I figure I'll learn something. But that dismissive attitude is annoying. "I traveled the world and heard nothing that interested me," that's typical, I think. I was once in the front rows at a concert where someone in the audience shouted out a request but didn't get the name of the tune exactly right. Branford, no doubt unaware that he was within mike range, gave a smirk to his bandmates and said (paraphrasing), "That's not what it's called, asshole." That kind of shocked me, I must admit.

[pig pen]

Eh, who cares?

We don't listen to great music because it's made by model citizens.

True, but I do find that most jazz/improvising musicians are generous people and I'm disappointed when confronted with one who isn't. I don't mind crusty, opinionated people and eccentricity somewhat comes with the territory but disrespect towards other musicians puts me off.

[steve(thelil)]

I agree with Scott that it a guy's personality or arrogance doesn't make his music any less compelling. But many people, including myself, care whether a musician is a nice guy or not, whether or not it really makes sense to.

[erwbol]

There is enough excellent music, past and present, and Branford is no Miles Davis. I stopped listening to him.

[Steve Reynolds]

I'll post what I posted elsewhere (with NO response which is typical of many non-JCS type jazz posters)

Interesting to hear that Branford is NOT interested in anyone else's current music. The musicians I go to see are much different.

Here is the kicker that when he is speaking of the John Surman SOS recording of 1977:



"Yes, it's that anti-establishment movement, which I find amusing because none of the players could play establishment music"



first off, asshat - how broad a brush are you painting with that so-called 'anti-establihment movement'?



the brits only?



Does this include the AACM and BAG?



let's say it's just the British or even including other practitioners of what some refer to as european free improvisation musicians - and at that time it would refer to the first generation musicians of that movement.



then that would include musicians such as John Stevens, Kenny Wheeler, Dave Holland, Derek Bailey, Tevor Watts, Harry Beckett and Evan Parker - and if we stretch just a little bit to the continent, it would then include Han Bennink, Alexander von Schlippenbach, Manfred Schoof, Misha Mengelberg, and many more.



whether some of these guys could play 'establishment material' is known or unknown - but there are quite a few of them who are very well versed in many idioms of jazz or otherwise - but the laughable aspect of Branford's comments is that he cannot hold a candle to any of the above musicians. These guys invented and re-invented jazz and free improvisation on levels that he could only think about - which he obviously hasn't as he hasn't a fucking clue about free improvisation or the immense talents and legacies of these so-called anti-establishment musicians.



It's on the verge of being bigoted if who he is refering to are the europeans and it certainly comes across that way.



I really wish they would have spun an SME record for him like they did with the great Evan Parker recording from 1999 with John Edwards and Mark Sanders recently where he didn't have a fucking clue at what they were doing.



blood and guts, baby

[David Beckett]

Great post, Preacher.

You make a good point, too, Scott. Sinatra's and Woody Allen are but two examples
of douchebags who's work shines through, despite
their assoholic natures.

That's why I went to the Branford gig and skipped the
second meet & greet.

With any Marsalis though, there's an added dimension:
Branford mentions students he's had "they know NOTHING" he said
(Which I found amusing, oddly. I'm old and curmudgeonly enough
not to find this wisecrack offensive). I just hate to see this
Jazz-as-museum attitude get any more traction than it
already has. Mind you, I completely approve of the
idea that one must know the past to innovate. But the idea
that there's nothing new under the sun and
all the good notes have been blown is beyond foolish - it's ...pernicious at best
Nihilistic even.

[pig pen]

Fuck what they say! It has no bearing on anything.

On this I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying that I will be boycotting Branford (I have several of his recordings including his most recent and they do get some play) but for me the way I feel about an artist affects my perception of their art.

[pig pen]

See, I can't imagine. Miles was a drug addicted fuck up who verbally and physically abused women. Does that change your opinion of his music?

I'm not saying that it's a "rule" with me and, like I said, it's a sort of feeling that I associate with a person when I listen to them. I've read at least one of Miles' biographies (I'm an old fart and I can't be entirely certain about anything anymore) and I am aware of how much of an asshole he could be but somehow that never bothered me. Same with Mingus, I read the account of his behaviour on the Money Jungle recording session and it made me laugh. I think part of it is that Branford has never struck me as someone who is doing anything that is particularly "special", while guys like Miles and Mingus definitely were. So, it's completely arbitrary and I make no claim to being consistent, but sometimes an artist's personality will affect my perception of their art particularly if I feel like it's on the mediocre side of things.

[Tom Storer]

I don't like music the less because I perceive the artist to be an asshole. On the other hand, I might like it better if I perceive the artist to be a fine human being. Illogical but there you have it.

Meanwhile, if anyone is going to be a public person and broadcast their judgments through Downbeat interviews etc., they're fair game to people reacting to their attitudes.

Branford is a smart and articulate person, but he doesn't have too much patience for subtle qualifications. I haven't heard the piece in the blindfold test, but flatly declaring "nobody in the band is a jazz musician", and then it turns out to be Fathead Newman with Idris Muhammad, I mean, well... maybe the piece is poor jazz, but that's not the same thing. And then claiming that Newman "was never a real jazz guy"... Come on, Branford. That's just silly. That's just so he doesn't have to say, OK, so I was wrong about that.

[Steve Reynolds]

The reality of it is as extreme and sometimes as distasteful as Mingus and especially Miles were as human beings or at least in some of their behaviours, the music was great enough for many of us to overlook it.

Plus if they or other seminal musicians were arrogant or came across that way, they had a track record of brilliance to back it up.

Branford can't hold a candle to them or numerous musicians playing today that he has no interest in or isn't interested in when he's heard them.

Branford is a fine musician but the idea that someone like him to come out and basically shush the idea that there is great music besides his own being played today - which is in effect what he is saying is way beyond simple arrogance.